INTERVIEW

What did you feel when you were voted last year by the critics among the best five new talents of Italian jazz and the only drummer?

I was very pleased, obviously, especially if you take into account that I was only eighteen and that I was voted for only one record – the one I made with Malaguti and Leveratto –, when I was sixteen. I warmly thank the critics but I do not let it go to my head. I still have a lot to learn!

By now everyone, even abroad, knows that you have decided to launch Californian jazz. Why have you chosen this style which has not been favourably accepted by the critics?

Because it is the most congenial to me. I love all true jazz: from the New Orleans to Eric Dolphy, but the most refined style are without any doubt the cool and Californian which is an intelligent evolution of the cool. It has taken the best of the tradition: from Parker – whom I consider the most genial exponent of jazz with Art Pepper – it has derived the bop component; from Tristano the cool; from Lester Young and Basie the Kansas City swing. If you then add, thanks to Darius Milhaud and Wesley La Violette, a perfect control of classical music (the fugues and the counterpoints of the Californians are witout equal) you end up with a unique blend.
Some critics have written that West Coast jazz is an enervating music, a “foolish amalgama”. They are completely off the track. The Californians have more swing than anybody else. It is not by accident that Harry Edison and Benny Carter recorded with them!

Is there any other aspect of Californian jazz that you like?

As I have often stated, I do not tolerate approximate jazz, the one churned out at jam sessions when everyone flexes their muscles in competition with lengthy solo plays and hardly any formal care. The Californian jazz is opposite to all this: arrangement and composition are basic and the solos have an important function but are not an end to themselves.
The effort put into composition by Californian jazz players has been great. One cannot always settle for the standard. One day people will fully understand the greatness of arrangers such as Shorty Rogers, Bill Holman, Marty Paich, Lennie Niehaus, Jimmy Giuffre, Duane Tatro, Johnny Mandel, Lyle Murphy, Bob Graettinger, Bill Russo, Russ Garcia, Gene Roland, Pete Rugolo, Johnny Richards …

According to you, why hasn’t West Coast jazz met with the favour of the critics?

For the usual attitude of “positive discrimination,” as a result of which only jazz played by black musicians has been promoted while that played by white musicians has been snubbed. And also because not everyone, alas, has refined taste: Californian jazz is an aristocratic jazz! Furthermore, people do not have an in-depth knowledge of this style. Apart from the most important players, another lot – sadly forgotten – should be reconsidered: Virgil Gonsalves, Herbie Harper, Jack Quigley, Bob Davis, Johnny Hamlin, Bob Hardaway, Bob Rogers, Mousie Bonati, Buddy Arnold, Dick Johnson, Al Belletto, Billy Usselton, Med Flory, Cy Touff, Jack Millman, Jerry Coker, Lennie Hambro, Ralph Gari, Max Bennett, Steve White, Ronnie Lang, Jack Martin, Harry Babasin, John Pisano and Billy Bean, the English Ken Moule and the fantastic groups such as the Westchester Workshop, the Hollywood Saxophone Jazz Quartet, the Rochester Contemporary Jazz Ensemble, the Sandole Brothers, the Westlake College Quintet and the Chamber Jazz Sextet; all Californian: some stylistically if not geographically.
With the trio Malaguti-Leveratto-Lanza, with the Lighthouse Giants and with other larger groups which I’ll set up I intend reviving this sublime music. It is my main ambition as well as that of creating for myself an important niche in the history of percussion jazz. They are ambitious programmes – I know – but if I have a virtue, it is my tenacity. I play the instrument for hours on end.

I know that you have a negative opinion of present jazz. Why?

I cannot tolerate people who try to be smart. In order to be in and gain the following of the young public – perhaps with the excuse that one is experimenting new techniques – too many musicians offer a repertoire which is contaminated by rock and fusion pieces, which are always an indication of vulgarity and an unbearable commercial tendency.
I believe that if a jazz player cannot survive financially, then he should get himself another job; there is nothing wrong with this. But one should not betray oneself and taint one’s image.
Jazz is swing: that is that. I don’t put up with the many bosse and Latin rhythms (except for the Afro-Cuban which has more jazz quality about it); however, I play them because they have a greater dignity than the rock. All told, however, they are types of music which have a commercial quality about them, even if they are played by a genius like Stan Getz. Brasilian and Argentinian soccer players are the best in the world, but their music has nothing to do with jazz. I loathe all types of contamination.

What do you think of European and of Italian jazz in particular?

As I have already written, jazz is music from the States and any jazz player from any part of the world can play it at very high levels as long as he conforms completely to the canons of American jazz. But I think that it is completely ridiculous to propose a Scandinavian or Balkan or Mittleuropean or Neapolitan jazz, or jazz from the Po region, for that matter.
Europe has given and gives us many excellent instrumentalists, and the same goes for Italy; but if you want to be serious and do not want to make fun of the public, you must play only American jazz.
I give you an example: anyone can prepare an excellent ribollita (a Tuscan vegetable soup) or bucatini all’amatriciana (pasta with red sauce, bacon and peppered Roman parmisan cheese from the Rome region) – even someone from China or Peru or Congo; but if instead of olive oil, black cabbage and time, - and in the case of the bucatini all’amatriciana – of the bacon and of the peppered Roman parmisan cheese, you put sesame oil, soya and seaweeds, then you will come up with anything but a ribollita or bucatini all’amatriciana.

You have passed negative judgement on modal jazz. Why?

It is boring and repetitive to no end. While the musicians improvise, I know half an hour in advance what they are about to do. This is killing truly improvised jazz.
It is no secret that I do not have a liking for Miles Davis, undeservedly praised today as the greatest musician in the history of jazz. It is ridiculous. He had only a good sound; but as for sound Chet Baker’s was better and he played the trumpet at such a high level. People are prone to idolise him in a way which is incomprehensible to me. His solos are marked by false notes. With his puny stuttering voice he has ruined Parker’s records (imagine if he had at his side Gillespie, Navarro or even Dorham or McGhee). As a trumpet player of cool jazz, without resorting to Chet, I prefer to him the likes of Don Ferrara and John Eardley; and I do not mention Californian players of the calibre of Conte Candoli, Jack Sheldon or Shorty Rogers. As a trumpet player of bop, he is no match for a giant like Clifford Brown or Booker Little or Art Farmer.
Davis has had the nous of always being at the right place in the right time and of choosing, al least until the period when he switched to electric instruments, first quality musicians. That’s all. Of course, some records are real masterpieces, thanks to his partners (I am thinking of Workin’, Steamin’, Relaxin’, Cookin’, Kind of Blue, My Funny Valentine and especially Birth of the Cool); but what would all these records be without artists such as John Coltrane, Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones, Wynton Kelly, Bill Evans, Gerry Mulligan, Lee Konitz, John Lewis, Gil Evans and others? No, he is not the genius that people are making out to be. Furthermore, his shameful end, like that of a clown rock player, leaves an indelible mark on a career which is absolutely blown up by the press, always generous with technically modest musicians and incomprehensibly critical towards musicians who are really in control of their instruments; I am thinking of the crazy opinions passed on Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, the fantastic Harry James or his great West Coast instrumentalists.

What do you think of Coltrane?

Coltrane was by far a greater artist than Davis and he was a giant; his recordings, up to the first Impulse, are fascinating. Unfortunately he has brought about an unbearable fashion, an involuntary tyranny: from the Sixties onwards everybody has been playing like him because he is a musician easily imitated though he is too solemn and lacking in any self-irony.
Today it is almost impossible to find a refined tenor like Getz or Sims or Cohn or Bob Cooper or Jack Montrose or Richie Kamuca or Bill Perkins or Bill Holman or Dave Pell or Mike Cuozzo or Phil Urso. I would like to see these pocket-size Coltrane-style players imitating artists the like of Eric Dolphy or Warne Marsh or Sonny Rollins or Art Pepper or Paul Desmond or Pee Wee Russell! And what should be said about the fashion of the soprano, an instrument of unbearable sonority except when played by a few greats: Gene Roand, Steve Lacy, Lucky Thompson?
The piano style by McCoy Tyner, though efficient and rich in pathos, is too repetitive. What a contrast with someone like Wynton Kelly, Red Garland, Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Sonny Clark, Kenny Drew, just to mention a few hard bop black piano players!

And what about Bill Evans?

Now, this is a great artist. Of course, I appreciate especially the early Evans, the one who played with Tony Scott and with Hal McKusick, two musicians whom I adore.
Then he became slightly monotonous and I think a dwarf comparated to Lennie Tristano. I rather prefer Ronnie Ball and Sal Mosca. And that famous trio, with their very fashionable mania of the interplay, is at the extreme opposite end of my musical ideals. I love base players who play like base players and not like ukulele musicians, and drum players who play like drum players and not like percussionists.

What do you think of Hancock, Corea and Jarrett?

Nothing good at all. They are musicians who obviously can play, but have ruined jazz, dragging it towards a fusion with rock for purely commercial ends. I dislike them immensely, their groups and their musicians. In particular the Weather Report, the Electric Band, McLaughlin’s Mahavishnu, the groups of Metheny, Di Meola, Scofield, who have perverted the taste of young generations.

And what do you think about free jazz?

I hold in great regard serious experimenters like Bill Dixon, Steve Lacy, Albert Ayler, Roswell Rudd, Muhal Richard Abrams, Anthony Braxton and, in Europe, Albert Mangelsdorff, Willem Breuker and Mathias Ruegg, even if I am very different from them.
However, there is very little left of the free, nowadays. It is a dead end situation which came about not only for the love of research, but also for demagogic opportunism, for a fad o for instrumental incapacity. Take, for example, the instrument I play: Sunny Murray is a percussionist lacking in technique; but Han Bennink, even if he has a heterodox style, is a great instrumentalist.

Is it true that you prefer white to black musicians?

It is obvious that I have more affinity with white musicians. For this reason I am more in tune with Bix, Chet, Stan Kenton, Woody Herman, all the white bands (starting with Artie Shaw and Glenn Miller), Bud Freeman, Frankie Trumbauer, Eddie Miller, Bunny Berigan, Harry James, Jack Teargarden, Benny Goodman, Dodo Marmarosa, George Wallington, besides, of course, the cool and Californian musicians from whom I take inspiration. One of my favourite Californian musicians is certainly Buddy Collette, who is black; and the same goes for Carl Perkins, Hampton Hawes, Frank Morgan, Curtis Counce and Leroy Vinnegar.
And then I spend hours listening to Lester Young, without whom we would not have cool and Californian jazz. I adore Basie and Ellington, Parker and Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Bud Powell, the Jazz Messengers, Cannonball, Benny Golson, the early Harold Land, Gene Ammons, Dexter Gordon and Wardell Gray, Tadd Dameron, all the New Orleans and Swing jazz. No, jazz could not exist without black musicians. But it could not exist without white musicians, expecially Italians, and Jews.

You have always sustained that Buddy Rich, Shelly Manne and Louis Bellson are your model drummers. Is there a black drummer that you consider more highly than others?

I love especially the big band drummers and among black musicians I single out Rufus Jones and Sonny Payne.
Among the boppers I prefer above all Kenny Clarke, whose contribution to the development of drum playing has been immense. Be bop is fundamental for me; I like it a lot and I believe that it is not possible today to play real jazz without knowing it fully.
In my Self-portrait I inexplicablement forgot a white drummer I like very much: Jeff Morton, the best drummer in cool style. I attentively listened Larry Bunker, one of the best drummers for small groups; I have many things in common with him.

In the long list of drummers mentioned in your Self-portrait, published in the cover notes of your first record, you do not mention either Elvin Jones or Tony Williams. Why?

Elvin is a great drummer but too African and with some unorthodox traits and a tendency to break too much the rhythm. Furthermore, like Philly Joe Jones is an excelent second lead, but a very modest leader, unlike Art Blakey and Max Roach.
Williams plays too loudly and is miles away from my world, the same goes for De Johnnette, Peter Erskine and Paul Motian, whose technique is mediocre. No, frankly, I do not like at all these latter ones. If I think that they have troubled for years poor Danny Barcellona, who was – I guarantee you – an excellent drummer…

And what about the more modern ones?

Vinnie Colaiuta is an exceptional drummer, and so Dennis Chambers; Steve Gadd is a fantastic accompanist and Dave Weckl too has a great technique. Pity that they almost always play commercial music! But they are great drummers. If they dedicated themselves more to true jazz, they would have a very important place in the history of jazz drums.

What would you say to those who, though loving jazz, believe it is dead?

That they are defeatists.
It is true that the great innovators are dead, but this does not mean that jazz is dead.
In less than a century jazz has covered the thousand-year old journey of European music: from Greco-Roman to Medieval, right down to avant-garde. But we have an extra: improvisation, which allows every solo player to express himself in a personal way. For this reason I do not like jazz musicians who copy blindly this or that player or those same musicians who are easy to imitate and, hence, are an easy point of reference. And I don’t agree with musicians that philologically recreate old jazz, because jazz is true creativity, not philology.
You see, it is not a question of style: today you can play in a creative way bop, cool, Californian jazz, hard bop, swing, progressive and even traditional jazz. In my opinion Bob Wilber, Kenny Davern or Dick Hyman are more modern than many other musicians considered avant-garde. No, jazz is alive and thriving and never before has been played at such high level.
Jazz will die only when the human race will disappear from the face of the earth.

Why is your appearance so different from that of your peers?

True, I have an hair like the men of the Italian Renaissance and I like to wear a coat and tie. It is a question of self-respect and of respect towards the public. I have never followed the fashions, that make uniform all the people. I’m not a member of any gang and I like to have personality and distinguish myself from the people. Some fads are even unnatural and dangerous for the health: I am referring to piercing and tattooing, that come from the meanest people and from inferior cultures. My opinions perhaps are not politically correct, but these are my ideas.
The present young people resemble to gallows-birds. The girls have not any femininity: they stroll with their naked belly with piercings and tattoes even if it snows. But did they ever see Cyd Charisse, Ava Gardner or Hedi Lamarr? The fashion is the triumph of stupidity. Besides, these are the consequences of a stupid television, of an idiot radio, of very bad politicians. For me, instead, refined manners are essential.

How important has your family been in your formation?

Extremely. My father is one of the greatest scholars of Medieval and Renaissance Tuscan literature; he is the director of the journal “Letteratura italiana antica” (I am the editorial secretary) and he is a great lover of jazz. He has just set up a yearly periodical publication: “Jazzofilia”. Our house is always full of scholars from all corners of the world, of musicians, of artists, of scientists: all distinguished and highly stimulating persons.
My mother is an extraordinary woman: everything centers around her. Though she has an Arts degree, she has dedicated herself completely to the family and we all depend on her because my father is not at all a practical man.
With my grandfather Peppino – dad’s dad – I had a fantastic rapport. I was ten when he died. I miss him a lot. But I am very religious: hence I am certain that I shall see him again one day.
My grandmothers live with us, and I love them. I’m totally traditionalist and I love Italian customs and traditions, included the foods. I don’t know what is a fast-food and I detest the nouvelle cuisine.

Describe a normal day in your life.

I wake up at five thirty; I practice on the drums from six to seven, before going to school. Now that I have completed high school (from this year I attend the DAMS courses at Roma 2 University), I’m able to practice from seven to midday, which is what I do on holidays. Then I listen to records until lunch time.
After lunch I play for my father so that he can follow my progress on the drums. After a siesta of one hour, some more drum practice; on three afternoons per week I study intensively the drums with my teacher, Emiliano Pratesi. Among the school subjects, I definitely prefer art history, Italian literature, cinema and theatre history.
After dinner, I do the accompaniment to a record with the drums for at least half an hour and then we watch a movie; at eleven I go to bed. Both my family and I do not like night life, depite our passion for jazz. Now and again I practice with the “Lighthouse Giants” and we take in a concert or two. I do not play much in public because I cannot easily adapt to situations which are not in line with my opinions; music for me is life and I do not want to betray it.
I never go out when I am in Rome because I do not have any real friend; furthermore, I cannot drive and I have never used mopeds or motorcycles because I hate them. It goes without saying that I have never set foot in a disco. At home, after all, I have everything I need: three sets of drums all set up in the rumpus room, an exceptional record collection, a very well furnished library and a video collection of thousand of films.
We spend a lot of time in our house near Florence, in the Chianti region at Poggio alla Croce; this is the house that my parents have given me for my eighteenth birthday: it’s a real paradise.

Can you talk of your passion for Florence?

I have four passions: jazz, drums, Florence and the Fiorentina soccer team.
In this, I have followed dad’s example. He is from Rome but he loves Florence and the Fiorentina even if now, for reasons well known, the team is going through some very bad moments. Other clubs – Lazio and many others from first and second division – were given a lifeline but not Florence. Luckily the Italian Soccer Federation in this year placed Fiorentina in the B championship.
Since I was very young we spent many lenghty periods in Florence; hence I know the city very well; I cannot stay away from it for more than two weeks.
At Poggio alla Croce I have my real friends: Roberto Piccioli known as “il Ciola”, Massimo Ravenni and Lorenzo Becattini, all supporters of the Fiorentina. Not much interested in soccer are other two dear friends of mine: Patrizio Nannicini and Gregorio Formiconi. Ciola was disgusted to hear that people from Rome had bought a house at Poggio. Then he was told that both my father and I were ardent supporters of the Fiorentina. The first time we were sitting at the Becattini’s bar, Ciola came up behind me and placed a Fiorentina scarf on my shoulders. We have since become inseparable friends.
On Sunday mornings, after mass, we have a snack and then with Massimo’s car we go to the stadium; obviously in the Fiesole stand. Then we go and have a pizza. We are often joined by other friends (Gastone Marconi, Tommaso and Giacomo “Giaggio” Fondelli) and by my father. I have a whole wardrobe full of Fiorentina memorabilia and I have met all the most important footballers of the team’s history, even two players from the team which won te first championship: Ardico Magnini and Beppe Virgili, known as “Pecos Bill”.
Romans do not like Tuscans very much. They are badly misguided. I know that in Florence and in any other Tuscan place (especially at Anghiari, where we often go, and at Bolgheri, where we spend every year July and some days of August) we have many friends. At Poggio alla Croce, where I have taken up residence, I have been “adopted” by the entire township; they hold me in such esteem that the marquis Carlo della Robbia, a great friend, has chosen me to appear on a local TV in order to illustrate the problems of the acqueduct.

Let’s go back to jazz. Can you list me your favourite musicians and the instruments they play?

Very well. Trumpet: Shorty Rogers (and, among the black musicians, Clifford Brown). Trombone: Frank Rosolino: he is the best. French horn: John Graas. Clarinet: Jimmy Giuffre and Bill Smith. Sax soprano: Gene Roland. Alto sax: Art Pepper and Charlie Parker; but I like very much also the immense Bud Shank, the lyric Paul Desmond and Lennie Niehaus. Tenor sax: Stan Getz. Baritone sax: Serge Chaloff (but also Gerry Mulligan and Lars Gullin). Flute: Bud Shank. Piano: Russ Freeman. Guitar: Barney Kessel. Violin: Joe Venuti. Vibraphone: Milt Jackson. Double bass: Ray Brown. Drums: for big band Buddy Rich; for a small group Shelly Manne. Composer: Shorty Rogers. Arranger: Bill Holman. Big Band: Stan Kenton. Small group: Shorty Rogers’ “Giants”. Male singer: Mel Tormé. Female singer: June Christy (but I also like Ann Richards a lot).

Whom do you prefer among these musicians?

Without any doubt Stan Kenton. A great orchestra director, a composer, arranger and fine pianist. Furthermore, he was a true gentleman; nobody was more refined and gentlemanlike as he was. I place great importance on appearances. In this too he is my model.

What instrument are you using?

I only play on classical drums from the Fifties and Sixties: Gretsch, Ludwig, Premier and Slingerland; I am looking for a Leedy, Shelly Manne model, but I have not managed to find it yet.
I study very much the timbre of the cymbals because I like to choose them according to the instruments which I have to accompany. I have many.
Usually I prefer medium-thin ride because they are more versatile and quick. My normal ride cymbal is a Custom Dark Ride K Zildjian of 20 inches, that – in line with the best tradition of jazz drum – I place down and very near to the snare drum and to the tom (I only use one tom, but I like playing with two floor toms). I also use a lot a 20 inches Istanbul Sizzle Ride and a 22 inches Swish Knocker Avedis Zildjian; at times a 20 inches Pang Avedis Zildjian (the last two when I accompany brass instruments); a 20 inches Custom Ride K Zildjian, very aggressive, good for consistent formations; when I play with my trio I always set up a 20 inches Flat Ride Instanbul, which I consider the best cymbal to accompany a guitar.
I also have some heavy ride, useful for hard bop and beautiful to accompany the piano; a 22 inches Deep Ride Avedis Zildjian, a 22 inches Dark Ride Paiste Sound (first series), a 20 inches Ping Tosco with three rivets and an extra heavy single one: a 20 inches Earth Ride Avedis Zildjian which I use in very particular circumstances; as I do, after all, with the 8 inches Bell Paiste of the series Seven Sound Set.
For crash, as the needs requires, I use two 15 and 18 inches Custom Dark K Zildjian, a 17 inches Dark Crash K Zildjian, a 16 inches Paper Thin Crash Avedis Zildjian, a 18 inches Sabian O-zone Crash and an 18 inches Rocktagon Sabian (this last one is very liked by Jeffrey Watts), a 14 inches Mini-China K Zildjian, a 18 inches Oriental China Crash Sound Effects Zildjian and a 18 inches Swish Avedis Zildjian, two 8 and 12 inches Splash K Zildjian. For special effects I use a 12 inches EFX Piggyback Sound Effects Zildjian, which I usually use with a 18 inches Custom Dark Crash K Zildjian.
I use two Hi Hats, according to the need: a 13 inches K Zildjian and a 4 inches Quick Beat Avedis Zildjian.
For sticks I use the Vic Firth SD4 Combo; for brushes the Regal Tip Clayton Cameron; for mallets the Ludwig.

Are you happy with the way you play today?

What I prefer is to study the instrument at great length (now I am concentrating on the polirhythms). I never miss a day. I have improved a lot but there is still room for improvement. I do not feel that I have got there yet. Heaven help. Never rest on the laurels. I still have a long way to go.

Do you prefer small groups or big bands?

I am a technical drummer and I enjoy the solo parts. Hence my natural place would be in a big band: this is my great ambition.
But I also adore playing in small groups, because I use very willingly the brushes; I practice with them a few hours every day. I feel very much at ease both in the trio with Malaguti and Leveratto and with the “Lighthouse Giants”.
The main thing is to select clearly the musical situations and not miss a beat. I am an absolute purist: I can play West Coast and cool jazz, bop, hard bop and mainstream as long it is played with swing.

A dream you would like to achieve?

To set up a big band which can play the Californian repertoire. Sooner or later I’ll succeed.

Interview conducted by FULVIO ROCCATANO.

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